General Chat

What does everyone think about reports (yet again) that question the age of child refugees being allowed into the UK?

I only saw one photo yesterday and some of those 'boys' looked as if they were over 18 to me but I am not a doctor.

Does a paediatrician examine them?

Someone mentioned to me yesterday that there are never many girls in the photos but I pointed out that, because of their religion, most would have to remain with their families even though boys and girls are being indoctrinated and forced to fight.

Is 16 the age at which children leave care in the UK? I have no idea and haven't googled yet this morning .... but you can see what I'm thinking folks.

X-rays on wrist will show if under 18.

Thanks Pat.

I've just googled and it's 18 for children in care.

Just been reading this morning and, apparently, not even dental tests on the 'child' refugees are allowed to be carried out. Apparently a Home Office source said they would not be used as it could be too intrusive so what chance of the refugees being X-rayed, Pat?

Apparently, documentary evidence and family pictures are used.

Documentary evidence is easy to obtain if you're corrupt.

Family pictures! We all know how children can change from young childhood (which is probably the age when the child refugees last lived with their families) to 18.

If these reports are true, some other method is definitely desirable because there may be many adults wasting everyone's time and resources as well as taking the places that children ought to have.

You try saying all this though, and it provokes howls of rage from the do gooders who can not see that they are probably being duped. Of course 'children' need to be looked after, and let's face it the French have failed dismally in this respect and should be ashamed; think if if this situation was happening at Dover?!!!!! The really needy children will be pushed the back of the queue, while older stronger young people shove to the front. Where are the girls? We see them en route, but not in this camp :-S. what a complete shambles it all is!

Humanity has an extraordinary capacity for victimisation & self-righteousness, for turning the spotlight on those who are different.

Those of a different faith, the sick, the refugee (young & old) & the disabled are often turned into social pariahs.

I've said it, Magpie, because I think it's a crying shame that some children are being denied safety because adults may be taking their places.

Actually it's wicked as the truly vulnerable will be end up God knows where, while others (males) aged?!!! will shove their way into Britain courtesy of our ridiculous so called vetting arrangements. We daren't query any of it for fear of being called all the usual names! It's just pathetic!

Dental tests aren't conclusive. One of our children started wisdom teeth at 16, the others in their early 20's. It would not be surprising if lone females had already been trafficked and 'enslaved'. Some of the youths are being reunited with 'uncles'. In a number of communities that title has a different meaning to a parents brother or sisters husband.

Like others, I was surprised that they weren't obviously younger.

Detective is correct about teeth, I didn't have a tooth until I was one year old and talking, the same with my daughter. Both son and daughter were late with adult dentition and had orthodontics well after their friends. I was still having teeth(not wisdom teeth) at 16 - last tooth was a premolar. I however had all my wisdom teeth during the year I was 19.

As a dental nurse I remember extractions of wisdom teeth of a man in his 70s as they had just started erupting and were making his dentures wobble. He had full dentures and had lost all his teeth many years before. We handed him his 2 wisdom and he took them home to show his grandchildren. :-)

The whole situation with these people just makes you realize we & other countries are not coping at all with the huge amount of refuges .were do you start .they are all human beings not cattle in a market to be branded & then sent out to pasture .I haven't any solution .don't pretend to have, we can all talk its cheap .but solutions need to be found & get help for some deserving & utterly desperate people Barbra

Barbera is right, Dermot's post is worth repeating

"Humanity has an extraordinary capacity for victimisation & self-righteousness, for turning the spotlight on those who are different. Those of a different faith, the sick, the refugee (young & old) & the disabled are often turned into social pariahs."

Right from the get go the Calais refugees have had the option of applying for residence in France. Indeed the UK govt claims that they must do this under the Dublin convention. Not very many have done this 'cos (a) many of the refugees speak English v few French (b) France has a big unemployment problem (c) France has been perceived as racist (true), (d) many have rellies in England. France is beginning to take the pro active steps it should have taken years ago.

The British have always refused to take resp. for any of the refugees even where they had a legal duty to do so. This especially applied to T May's tenure as Home Secretary. Given the years oif delay it is hardly suprising that some of the chidlren are well over 14. Recent actions by the French police have also made it v difficult for charities to keep track of people.

The British are behaving in exactly the same way as they behaved towards Jewish refugees 1932-1939. I hope they are proud.

My wisdom teaath - all 4 - came up suddenly when I was 28 and I had to have an emergency operation in hospital.

Something for your Kindle or Kobo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plot_Against_America

Most of the pictures we were shown had young men looking much older than 17 when we're told they were 14-17.
The simple fact is none of these people just appeared at Calais. They are meant to claim refugee status in the first safe country, not the first country they want to live in. If that's applied then the UK has no obligation to take any of them. The UK has taken many people from the camps.

You cannot gauge the age of any teen based on their appearance, I had a lad working PT whilst he was still studying for GCSEs and he looked in his 20s because of his ethnicity.

You have to give the UK agencies a bit more credit. They have to take into account a child's vulnerability too.

Peoples' views have been soured because of the high number of single males arriving as refugees from areas which we don't consider as conflict zones. I understand that. However, I cannot possibly make a judgement because I have no idea what any true refugee has suffered no matter what their age.

We are served up what the media deems 'news' and yes it is truly disgraceful that some youths attack and injure both lorry and car drivers in their attempt to get to the UK.

As for claiming refugee status in the first safe country they arrive in - they are actively encouraged to cross into the bordering countries time and time again.

The situation is a humanitarian tragedy on our doorstep.

Not so Caroline the UK has a legal duty to admit young people under the age of 18 who have close family legally living in the UK. The Home Office has used all kinds of stratagems to evade its responsibilities and in the process generated a massive amount of ill will from the French. In case you hadn't noticed whatever brexit might salvage will depend on French co-operation.

It is worth noting though that people admitted into the UK under the family heading do not have an automatic right of residence after the age of 18. This is already causing a great deal of angst in the UK.

Following the logic of T May and her gauleiters the govt will have to restart the UK ID card project and we'll all get used to hearing the expression "papers please" other than in the movies.

This is the most utterly cr ap government, devoid of intellectuaal capability, we have had since Lord North. It is destined for disaster though right now it has not yet sussed out which is the preferred manner.

In some ways it might be a good hing if T May invoked S50 now. There would be an immediate collapse in sterling down to around $ parity with 50-70c in range during 2017. It is fear of this which is causing T May to prevaricate blaming Phil Hammond et al. OTOH a sterling collapse could not be managed without the help of the IMF and Brussels both of which would be likely to demand a U-turn from the ideas of Liam Fox.

It is always possible to spot a government which is soon to be fatally strapped for cash. It starts by grabbing pensions and then moves on to controls on capital flight. Thus the right to cash in annuities ( and thus rescue pensions from a crashing currency) has been removed. Much closer monitoring of business accounts and property is being instituted. I hope that UK pensioners in the EU have other sources of income as well as UK pensions.

If Geo Osborne's November finance statements had to be taken with a pinch of salt the Nov statement from Hammond this year will need a truckload of rock salt.

A number thoughts struck me on the subject of what is a child.
In the UK we allow "children" of 16 to join the army.
In many countries a girl may be legally married and having children of her own at 14.
In many instances boy soldiers even as young as 12 will be recruited into carrying a gun and committing murder, mutilation and rape.
Is a 16 year old teenager who can marry in the UK (albeit with parental consent) have kids and support themselves and family still a child?
I kind of think of kids being a child till they start being a teenager (a different animal altogether! ;-) )

Perhaps a bit off subject but I wonder how others feel about defining it.

The State pension grab started well before T May’s government with the accelerated move to male/female parity.
Gordon Brown started the grab on occupational pension funds, not the Conservatives.

Yes, I do think that we will be moving towards ID cards, if not immediately then in the next 10 years or so. As it stands, photo ID in the form of Driving Licences are requested by many organisations.
a) not everyone has a driving licence, certainly not those too young to drive
b) a number of DL holders have the old green paper version (no photo)
c) the alternative is a passport – not everyone has one of those.

Age 16-18 is such a grey area when, in my opinion, adult guidance is still needed. As far as I’m aware, a contract signed by a 16/17 year old within the UK is not binding unless countersigned by a parent/guardian.

We do have to be aware that economic circumstances & living conditions do force ‘children’ to grow up faster particularly in less well developed countries even if they weren’t raised in what is now a conflict zone. Culture also plays a part.

Perhaps the powers-that-be can use wrist x-rays to determine age, as mentioned by Pat earlier on this thread. I have no idea.

As far as dental inspection is concerned, I have never had any wisdom teeth (speaks volumes, doesn't it?).

If you think this is a c*ap government, Rollo, let us know what you think about Cameron's and Blair's governments? As bad as you can get?

Personally, I think it's too soon for me to judge May's government, but she started behind the eight-ball and so far I am neither disillusioned nor disappointed. That she's procrastinating does not bother me at all as I believe anyone would need time to sort out the plethora of rules and information. I hope she has intelligent advisers who know their stuff.

I understand what you said about the way in which we treated Jewish refugees fleeing Europe before and during WW2 but the reason they wanted to be across waters was because they felt safer doing so. Those left in France, Holland etc would expect no quarter from the majority of citizens living there as they also feared the army of occupation and more than a few informed on Jewish people.

I want to introduce into this written conversation, also, that I think it's about time schools were open on a few evenings a week in order to teach English to all incomers who can't read or converse in the language. The classes may eventually pay for themselves by obviating the need for interpreters.

I agree that the requirement to speak English should be enforced. My friend was head of child services in East London a couple of decades ago and at that time her list of children were in homes that required interpreters for over 50 languages.

Children pick up new language skills pretty quickly and their parents, well a majority, rely on their children to act as interpreters. Without the ability to speak English the families become entrenched in locales of race, religion and language. That is not the route to integration. I speak from experience of living overseas in non English speaking countries.

Having said the above I want true refugee children to have the chance of a better, safer and more fulfilled lives in the UK.

Interpreters deserve a job just as much as everyone else.

It's a shame that the UK is very limited in its foreign language teaching.