Genealogy Chat

Hello my friends

I have been doing some more digging regarding my great-aunt Lina's husband Henri Underwood. I think I may have resolved one of the conundrums baffling me.

Unable to obtain a birth certificate for Henri I foraged through Ancestry.co.uk and managed to find a record in the section:
London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906. Actually what I found is a medical record entitled" RETURN of all births registered during the month of July in the sub-district of Somers Town. This is a record of vaccinations, and found under

entry number 271
born 16th June, Drummond St., Henri, M, Martha Underwood, NURSE, date of vaccination on 8/9/1880 administered by A. Wise

Now the question is did Nurse Martha Underwood have an affair with Mr Wise? Could this explain why Henri Underwood comes up in the censi and electoral rolls with the name Underwood-Wise.

Regarding Henri's posting in France during the war my cousin has still not heard from the authorities she wrote to. She has so far not been able to find any record of our aunt in or around Paris for the period we know that she lived in capital.

Well this is my news for today.
Cheerio
M

I would like to add a copy of the document to show you but don't know how to go about it.

Thank you MarieCeleste
I've just googled the address you give, but can only come up with a Rue des CHARRETTES in Rouen. It's highly unlikely that Mme Jollit is alive and not having a house number is another problem. Having just spoken to my cousin in Paris she has offered to write to the city's mayor outlining our search and see if perhaps we can get some more information. I know it's a very long shot but it's certainly worth investigating. We shall see if we even get an acknowledgement.

Watch this space .. qui vivra verra... as we say in french.

I am now shelving my research until the March as I will be abroad again, so I wish all contributors to this thread a MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY & PROSPEROUS YEAR 2016

Cheers to all and many thanks for your help
Marianne

Hello Marianne

When I posted previously the details from Henri's WW1 medal cards one of the contacts on it was:

c/o Mme Jollit, Rue De Chaneltes??, Rouen, France

Don't know if it's worth following that up (or even possible)? Just a chance it could be a connection to Lina.

Thanks DET

As I said previously my great-aunt. Lina Underwood nee Schwab, was definitely in Paris in 1936 but has totally disappeared off the radar thereafter. Had she died in Switzerland then there would have been an entry of sort into our town of origin, but as there is not, I am still assuming at this point that she remained either in France or went back to the UK. Although a search on BMD for a death record for Lina (1936-1970) in the UK has so far not shown anything.

As my grandfather Edouard Schwab died in May 1938 there is no correspondence between him and Lina beyond that date. My only other option would be to contact the British Embassy in Paris to see if they have any records of Henri and Lina, assuming of course that such records are kept. Another option would be to find out if/where/when Lina was issued with a British passport from the time of her marriage, but I’m not quite sure where to make such a request.

My cousin who lives south of Paris has been searching death records in Paris and the surrounding Departements but so far she has drawn blanks. France like Switzerland does not have a central register like we have in the UK and unless you know the locality where the event took place, it's like searching for a needle in a hay stack.

Anyway, many thanks for help and advice, it's much appreciated.
Marianne

Marianne, thank you for letting us know.

Did you ever find out what happened to Lina or did she disappear in the chaos of WW2?

If you were to search UK records for a possible marriage for Alfred Edward, it could be double indexed under U and W. Considering the way his mother was abandoned he might have taken her maiden name.

Now you have his date of birth, you could apply to the MOD to see if he enlisted in any if the British forces, but they do charge £30 per record. Each Service keeps their own records so it would be £30 x 3 with no guarantee of success. There are strict rules about who can have access. Considering his yob you might be allowed some but not all of his details.
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

The main problem we have is that no one knows where he went even assuming he survived the war. Any one of the continental European countries, back to the UK or even further overseas.

Hi all

Finally! I have just received a copy of the birth certificate of Alfred Edward Underwood-Wise.

It states the following:
Born: 14 August 1907 at 38 Elfindale Road, Camberwell
Name: Alfred Edward, boy,
Father: Henri Underwood-Wise, commercial Traveller
Mother: LINA Underwood-Wise formerly SCHWAB
Signature of informant: H. Underwood-Wise, father, 38 Elfindale Road, Herne Hill, on 18th September 1907

I just wanted to let you all know. But now how do I go about finding out about finding Alfred Edward's descendants?

Dear All

I have just ordered the BC for Alfred Edward Underwood-Wise. Will let you know what it says when I receive it in about 2 weeks time.

Many thanks

Thank you so much for coming back Marianne, I was wondering how you were getting on with this. Every so often a request comes along that gets under my skin and this was one of them!

I seriously would buy that birth certificate, I'm 99.99% certain that it's Teddy. Getting an actual birth date would perhaps help trace him.

Wow! Thank you for letting us know.

Although you now have enough info to reseach Henri Underwwod-Wise and his mother Martha Underwood, it doesn't really take us any further forward for Lina (Lucy on English documents) or what happened to Teddy.

Are you considering purchasing the BC for Alfred Edward Underwood-Wise?

Name: Alfred E Underwood-wise
Registration Year: 1907
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Camberwell
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 800

Well folks,
I now have to admit that you were right about my great-aunt Lina Schwab all along. So I apologise for being a pain in the proverbial and thank you for forcing me to keep digging further in Switzerland.

Earlier on this year my cousin and I received a scanned copy of a record entered in what is commonly known in Switzerland as our “town of origin” (not to be mistaken with place of birth); in our case the Schwab from Chiètres in canton Fribourg. The document was written in the old germanic script and it took us some time to decipher it. As we were not certain of our efforts we enlisted the help of a genealogy friend who confirmed our transcription and translation of the document. Because the writing was not very clear we transcribed the parent’s name as James. This explains why I was looking for Henri son of James Underwood and totally dismissed all connections to a Martha Underwood.

However, after all our exchanges on this website, and discussions with my cousin, it became obvious that the details we had about our great-aunt Lina Schwab and her marriage to Henri Underwood were incomplete and incorrect. I therefore wrote directly to the Civil Registry Office of Zurich and asked for a copy of the marriage entry in their records.

I have now received a typed copy of the entry of the record from Zurich which clearly states that Henri is the son of Martha Underwood and no mention of a father. This revelation of course changes everything and alters the course of our research.

Now that I am finally back home and have access to my digital files I will try posting a combined pdf file of both documents mentioned above.

Thank you all for your help

Marianne

That is certainly my suspicion DET.

I also wonder is the spelling of his name (Henri) on the birth and marriage is a clue.

If Martha underwood is the mother of the correct Henri/Henry Underwood, might she have married/co-habited with a Mr Wise for Henri/Henry's formative years? That might explain the Wise appendage.

It still doesn't work out what happened to 'Teddy'! I've a suspicion he disappeared somewhere in France. Considering the way his mother was treated, he may even have gone by a different surname.

To summarise the timeline for the wrong Henry:

1881 census - not yet born
Born 13 May 1883
1891 census - age 8, with family 50 Drummond Street. A scholar
1901 census - age 17, with family 50 Drummond Street. A pianoforte finisher
1911 census - age 27, with widowed mother 24 Countess Drive. A pianoforte maker
1912 - marries Queenie Beatrice Lilly. A pianoforte expert, address 36 Boundaries Road.
Henry and Queenie have children in 1913 and 1924.

There is no way this man could have been living a "double life" in London and elsewhere in Europe.

Henry and Queenie live at 34 Boundaries Road from 1918 to 1937 (they are listed on every electoral roll during that time). Thereafter they are at 7 Colston Avenue.

Henry dies 20 September 1964, address 7 Colston Avenue, Carshalton, Surrey (per probate). His wife and daughter are at that address on the 1965 electoral roll.

Buried On: 22 April 1880
Recorded at: St Pancras Cemetery (Camden)

(and that Henry above, on below)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/

Chris :)

Was this the birth certificate that you ordered which had the birth date of 10th April?

Births Jun 1880
UNDERWOOD Henry Pancras 1b 83

I think that baby died:

Deaths Jun 1880
Underwood Henry 0 Pancras 1b 61

It's a fairly common practice for people to name a new baby after a deceased sibling. I think this is James and Susan Jane's new child:

Births Jun 1883
Underwood Henry Pancras 1b 102
He was born 13 May 1883 but not baptised until 28 January 1895 (refer to my post of 3 Oct at 09:08).

This is why you're not finding him on the 1881 census, apart from not being the right Henry he hadn't been born.

I'm fairly sure that if you were to order THIS birth certificate the birth date would be 16 June 1880

Births Sep 1880
UNDERWOOD Henri Pancras 1b 93

You've already proved that Henry Underwood-Wise is the right man on the 1911 census as you have correspondence from that address (27 Regent Square).

The mention of an "irregular household" might be explained via the electoral rolls:

Name: Henry Underwood Wise
Year: 1923
County or Borough: Camden
Ward or Division/Constituency: St Pancras
Address: 84 Osnaburgh Street. Apparently alone.

Name: Henry Underwood Wise
Year: 1932
County or Borough: Hackney
Ward or Division/Constituency: Hackney
Street address: 36 Cricketfield Road
At the same address is a Rose Underwood Wise (also a few other names - the address is possibly apartments)

They are at the same address in 1933 but she is recorded as Rose Hetty.

Name: Henry Underwood Wise
Year: 1938
County or Borough: Westminster
Ward or Division/Constituency: Paddington
Street address: 6 Porchester Street
With a Marie Rose Underwood Wise

Name: Henry Underwood Wise
Year: 1939
County or Borough: Hornsey
Ward or Division/Constituency: Haringey North
At 85 Sydney Road with Rose Hetty.

After 1939 Rose Hetty is alone at 85 Sydney Road until 1950 (there were no electoral rolls during WW2).

I can find no marriage of Henry to a Rose Hetty (or variants) and I think this is the irregular household referred to - he was living with another woman whilst married to Lina.

Hi Marianne

Whilst I've no doubt that the information you have on Henry from his marriage to Lina and onwards is 100% accurate, I am still certain that he is not the son of James the pianoforte maker.

The birthdates are the key - your Henry was born 16 June 1880 so I'll just repost the baptism from above:

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
Name: Henri Underwood
Record Type: Birth
Estimated Birth Date: 16 Jun 1880 <<<<<<<<<
Mother's name: Martha Underwood - a nurse <<<<<<<<<
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Registers

No father named. Address was 82 DRUMMOND STREET

Appears to be a workhouse birth. There are also the following workhouse births to a single woman Martha Underwood:

Adelaide b 13 Aug 1879
William b 3 Dec 1881

I can find Adelaide on the 1881 with family called Smith but from thereon the children and mother Martha disappear.

It's very very common indeed for someone illegitimate to invent a father's name upon marriage for the sake of decency and James certainly isn't an unusual name (his mother may even have had a new partner called James). I think this has triggered a train of coincidences ......

Re: Lina Schwab and Henry Underwood

Good evening to all the contributors to this "thread"

I probably need to apologize for being stubborn but below are the exact details I have about my great aunt and her husband Henry Underwood - some of which I only discovered this afternoon.

According to the marriage record I received from Switzerland Henry Underwood married my great-aunt LINA Schwab on 10 September 1904 in Zurich. The record says that Henry was born 16 June 1880 in London, the son of James (deceased). Henry is a tradesman and single. - Lina was born on 30 December 1874 in Nuvilly, canton Fribourg in Switzerland.

As this was a civil wedding they both would have had to provide proof of identity. I apologise for misleading you, insofar as I have an extract of the marriage entry into the family records of my hometown in Switzerland and not the actual marriage certificate. But I will try and obtain one in the near future in the hope of clarifying dates and comparing signatures as well as perhaps disclosing who their witnesses were.

Based on this records information I searched the BMD website and obtained a copy of Henry Underwood son of James, born in 1880; however, the date of birth differs - here Henry is born on 10th April not 16 June at 50 Drummond Crescent. The name of his mother is Susan Jane Underwood nee Bedford.

I then searched the Census records of 1881, (where he does not appear, but could mean he was elsewhere on the day of census with other family members) but in 1891. in the 1901 census Henry lives with his parents in Somers Town, St Pancras, Middlesex together with his brothers Arthur, George and William and sister Rosa. In 1911 Henry appears alone with his mother Jane Underwood (aged 66 - a widow) and his brother George (aged 34)

Going by correspondence sent to my grandfather, Henry and Lina lived in London at the following addresses.
1906 = 74 Aldersgate, London EC - signed Harry, Lina
1910 = 27 Regent Sq, London WC - signed Harry, Lina
1913 = East Dulwich, London SE - signed Harry
incidentally Harry's french was perfect

In 1917 Lina sends my grandfather a postcard from Villeneuve (a small town on Lake Geneva) where she is on holiday with Harry (Henry) and Teddy who would probably have been about 9 or 10. They are staying with one of Lina's sister. The postcard is written and signed by Lina.

I have no further information about their whereabouts until the mid 1920s to 1936 when they or Lina are in Paris - this information is from diary entries of my uncle Robert Schwab (my father's brother who lived in Argenteuil, a district of Paris). Robert occasionally mentions meeting or speaking to his aunt Lina "in town", although there is no mention of Henry at those meetings and no details about what they talked about.

I'm currently in Paris staying with my cousin sifting through my uncle Robert's vast collection of diaries, postcards and letters. This afternoon we came across one very interesting and enlightening letter my grandfather wrote in August 1936 to his son Robert, in which he is expressing his distress at his sister Lina's impoverished situation and lamenting the fact that she did not listen to her sisters’ advice. I have no idea what the advice would have been, HOWEVER grandfather goes on to say and I quote “Your message saddens me but confirms what we discovered at the funeral of uncle Louis last December that Lina seems to live in abject poverty and is asking her sisters and other family members for help. Considering her HUSBAND IS LIVING IN AN IRREGULAR HOUSEHOLD Lina should get him to provide her with the necessary means to survive. She should contact the British Embassy in Paris for help as she is a British subject. She [Lina] should not expect her sisters and nephew to keep on subsidizing her financially” end of quote.

WOW it took my cousin and myself I by surprise and with shock I’ve come to realise this DOES confirm Henry’s double life if not perhaps even prove him committing bigamy!

It's quite possible that he "married" Queenie Beauttie Lilly in 1912 and have children with her?

So now I'm even more intrigued to find out what Henry was up to and where his son Teddy ended up. I'm sincerely hoping that the above details go some way to help in my quest.

Cheers everyone and thank you for all the hints and leads
Marianne

We could compare Henry's signature on both wedding records if it could be posted.
A strange one this is, I have been looking to see if Martha Underwood married a Mr Wise but I haven't found anything.

Does it make any difference that Lucy on 1911 census at 27,Regent Square was a British Subject by parentage and born @ 1881 not 1874.


Maryb.

Marianne - we ARE concentrating on Lina Schwab and Henry Underwood but as DET said earlier we need to go backwards in order to come forwards.

You say WISE doesn't have anything to do with your family yet in a message to DET you said that in 1910 your Underwoods were at 27 Regent Square - that is an exact match for Henry Underwood-WISE on the 1911 census. The same man who has Paris and Rouen addresses on his military medal records.

You said in your opening post that Henry Underwood was born 10 June 1880 at 50 Drummond Street and was the son of James Underwood, a pianoforte maker. Yes, James Underwood DID have a son Henry (who later married Queenie Beatrice Lilly in 1912) but that Henry was born 13 May 1883 and can be tracked through census and other records until his death in 1944.

The Henri Underwood (note spelling - same as in the Swiss marriage record) who was born in June 1880 at Drummond STREET was the son of a Martha Underwood. His birth date was the 16 June 1880 but very very often a 6 can be mis-transcribed as a 0.

Henry/Henri Underwood-Wise had a son Alfred Edward born 1907, many people are known by their middle names (as indeed I am). The abbreviations for Edward are (amongst others) Ed, Eddie, Ted and TEDDY (or TEDDIE).

Obviously you have records that we don't but the information that I have found I can back up with records and images of documents.

Sincerely, we would love to be able to connect you to descendants of Teddy Underwood but until we're 100% sure of the back history we won't send you on a wild goose chase.