Genealogy Chat

Hello
I was searching for my relatives wedding certificate to try and find Ellen's maiden name . William was born in 1842 Ellen was born 1842/3 . I found their marriage in Sheffield 1857 but unfortunately there is a possible 2 ellens.
Ellen Myalls and Ellen Muzzle. I tried to look for their birth certificate to distinguish between the 2 but I couldn't find them please could you help.

Sorry his surname is short

Would they have been born in 1842 and married in 1857?

Seems rather young for both of them

I know girls could marry at 12.and boys at 14 but it wasn't usual

Have you found them on any later census ?

I can't remember what it was that made me so sure it was that one. I think I've looked at too many records today lol.
She is definitely living with her daughter and son in law John and Winifred Smith in the 1911 census as widow. I'll try and work back from there again.

Silly me I've realised my mistake. She was born 1834 not 43.

Sorry for wasting your time.

William
Last name Short
Age 45
Birth year 1812
Marriage year 1857
Marriage date 12 Apr 1857
Marriage place Sheffield, Cathedral Church of St Peter & St Paul
Residence South St
Father's first name(s) Joseph
Father's last name Short
Spouse's first name(s) Ellen
Spouse's last name Ryalls
Spouse's age 42
Spouse's residence South St
Spouse's father's first name(s) Andrew
Spouse's father's last name Jack
County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Archive Sheffield Archives & Local Studies
Archive reference PR-138-3-74
Page 133
Record set Yorkshire Marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

Is this the 1911 Census?

Ellen Short
Age in 1911: 77
Estimated birth year: abt 1834
Relation to Head: Mother-in-law
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Warrington, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: North Manchester
Search Photos: Search for 'North Manchester' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 27 King Street Moston Manchester
Marital Status: Widowed
Registration district: Prestwich
Registration District Number: 467
Sub-registration district: Failsworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Piece: 24250
Household Members:
Name Age
John Thomas Douglas Smith 51
Mary Winifred Smith 43
Hilda Winifred Smith 19
Winifred Elsie Smith 10
Ellen Short 77

Is this Mary Winifred's birth?

Mary Winifred Short
Registration Year: 1867
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 244

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi gives
Surname Forename(s) Mother's Maiden Name Sub-District
SHORT Mary Winifred FURNIVAL Market Street

As Ellen was 42 when she married William, could it have been a second marriage?

1891? or is it the wrong family?

Ellen Short
Age: 58
Estimated birth year: abt 1833
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Oswald
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Manchester
Sub registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3250
Folio: 60
Page Number: 36
Household Members:
Name Age
Ellen Short 58
Mary W Short 23
George T F Short 22
Cyril Nicholson 22
James Abrams 23

Birth of George T F Short
George Thomas F Short
Registration Year: 1869
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 332

Lancashirebmd's version
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1869
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District
SHORT George Thomas Furnivall Newton

Although it doesn't give mmn, as one of his names is Furnivall, it does suggest that was her maiden name.

The new free search on GRO does give it

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
SHORT, GEORGE THOMAS FURNIVALL FURNIVALL
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 332

Can't find a marriage for an Ellen Furnival(l) at all to anyone. Perhaps she didn't marry?

Just to correct your original post re the two Ellens - the image does say

Marriages Jun 1857 (>99%)
Brown Harriet Sheffield 9c 279
Ledger Samuel Sheffield 9c 279
Myall Ellen Sheffield 9c 279 <<<<<
Myalls Ellen Sheffield 9c 279 <<<<<
SHORT William Sheffield 9c 279

2 seperate entries as per the image. Ellen Myall and Ellen Myalls. How inconsiderate of them!! Could it actually be the same person but double entered as the GRO scribe wasn't too sure himself?
Muzzle was for Edward Muzzle, married in Cuckfield, which is the previous entry on the image.

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Albion Yard, Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Short Head Married Male 49 1812 Shoe Maker Ashbourne, Derbyshire, England
Transcription
Ann Kenny Visitor Married Female 37 1824 House Keeper At Sea, At Sea
Transcription
Mary Ann Kenny Daughter - Female 9 1852 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Henry Kenny Son - Male 4 1857 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Anne Elizabeth Daughter - Female 2 1859 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
John Loukes Lodger Unmarried Male 50 1811 Silver Plater Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

on marriage cert willian is a shoe maker

????


Scotland Marriages 1561-1910 Transcription
Print transcription
First name(s) Helen
Last name Jack
Marriage year 1833
Marriage date 13 May 1833
Marriage place North Leith,Midlothian,Scotland
Spouse's first name(s) Henry
Spouse's last name Ryalls
Place North Leith
County Midlothian
Country Scotland
Father's first name(s) Andrew
Father's last name Jack
Record set Scotland Marriages 1561-1910
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

on 1857 marriage cert myalls looks more like ryalls ????

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Sheldon Street, Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry Ryalls Head Married Male 36 1815 Spring Knife Cutler Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Ellen Ryalls Wife Married Female 35 1816 - Scotland
Transcription
Mary Ryalls Daughter Unmarried Female 14 1837 Warehouse Girl Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Catherine Ryalls Daughter - Female 11 1840 Warehouse Girl Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Ann Ryalls Daughter - Female 9 1842 Scholar Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Isabella Ryalls Daughter - Female 6 1845 Scholar Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Jasper Ryalls Son - Male 4 1847 Scholar Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Transcription
Ellen E Ryalls Daughter - Female 0 1851 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

RYALLS, JASPER JACK Order
GRO Reference: 1846 D Quarter in OF THE ECCLESALL BIERLOW UNION Volume 22 Page 114

Helen Jack
Scotland Births and Baptisms
Name Helen Jack
Gender Female
Christening Place EDINBURGH PARISH, EDINBURGH, MIDLOTHIAN, SCOTLAND
Birth Date 03 Jun 1815
Birthplace Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Father's Name Andrew Jack
Mother's Name Janet Foster

When was death of William?...

Chris :)

Edits (two daughters of Henry below)

Ryalls, Catherine (of Sheffield, born 1839-04-10).
Baptised May 26, 1839, by W Smith at Sheffield Parish Church, Church Street, Sheffield.
Parents name(s) are Ellen & Henry (Cutler).
Note:
Sponsor: :Page No 148 :Reg No 1179
Similar Date Baptised Same Household if Available Surname Match if Available


Ryalls, Mary (of Sheffield, born 1837-03-20).
Baptised March 26, 1837, by J Gibson at Sheffield Parish Church, Church Street, Sheffield.
Parents name(s) are Ellen & Henry (Cutler).


http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/

(from above, if anything else relating on there)


(although below looks to be Ellen E on 1851 Census above)

09 November 1869 - Sheffield Daily Telegraph - Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Marriage
Charlesworth Thomas, eldest son of Mr. James Charlesworth, formerly of Salford, to Ellen Elizabeth, fifth daughter of the late Mr. Henry Ryallls, both of Sheffield.


Marriages Dec 1869 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------
CHARLESWORTH Thomas Sheffield 9c 605
RYALLS Helen Elizabeth Sheffield 9c 605

(1871 above couple, with son Henry, Spital Street, Brightside Bierlow, Sheffield)

I haven't got a death for William yet but that census from 1891 that detEcTive put is the right one. So he was dead before 1891.

Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Manchester
Church name St Mary
Register type Unspecified
Baptism date 08 Sep 1867
Birth date 22 Aug 1867
Person forename Mary Winifred
Person abode Windmill St
Father forename William Cunmeason
Father surname SHORT
Father occupation Ironmonger
Mother forename Ellen

http://www.freereg.org.uk/


England, Births & Baptisms 1538-1975 Transcription FFind My Past)

First name(s) George Thomas Furnival
Last name Short
Gender Male
Baptism year 1869
Baptism date 07 Mar 1869
Place Manchester
County Lancashire
Father's first name(s) William Gummerson
Father's last name Short
Mother's first name(s) Ellen

Chris :)

Edits (also on below)

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html

Baptism: 8 Sep 1867 St Mary, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Winifred Short - [Child] of William Gummerson Short & Ellen
Born: 22 Aug 1867
Abode: Windmill St.
Occupation: Ironmonger
Baptised by: E.A. Lang
Register: Baptisms 1853 - 1886, Page 21
Source: LDS Family Search


?

Deaths Mar 1883 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHORT William Gummerson 50 Glanford B. 7a 453


https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=short&yearOfDeath=1883&page=3#calendar

(Probate, Ironmonger, Ellen)


1881 (Find My Past)
William Short Head Married Male 49 1832 Ironmonger Clark Yorkshire, England
Ellen Short Wife Married Female 48 1833 Tailoress Warrington, Lancashire,
May Ellen Short Daughter Single Female 14 1867 Scholar -
Street Paradise Place
Parish Glanford Brigg
County Lincolnshire
Registration district Glanford Brigg
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 3284
Folio 118
Page 33


(below Marriage from google search, should also be on below link)

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y


18 Jul 1865 - Family Notices - Trove

SHORT—FURNIVAL.—On the 4th July, by special license, at the Church of St. John,
by the Rev. John Bliss, A.M., William Gummerson, the eldest son of the Rev.
Thomas Short, of Killingholme, Lincolnshire,
and also of Leeds, England, gas engineer, to Ellen, youngest daughter of the late John
Furnival, Esq., J.P., of Warrington, Lancashire, England, and niece of James Furnival Esq., C.E., Architect, Brisbane.


http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?grave=345340&scrwidth=800

(a possible, Thomas Short, although better on below)

http://www.findagrave.com/


https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/queryEntry.m?type=marriages

1865 B1337 Ellen Furnival William Gummerson Short



Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1891

SHORT Mary W SMITH John T Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Archives+, Manchester Central Library


Marriages Jun 1891 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------
Short Mary Winifred Manchester 8d 347
Smith John Thomas Manchester 8d 347



Deaths Dec 1918 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------
Short George T F 49 Prestwich 8d 581


1911 (Find My Past)
George Short Head Married Male Iron Driller 42 1869 Lancashire Manchester
Adeline Short Wife Married Female - 41 1870 Lancashire Manchester
Florence Short Daughter Single Female Folder And Sewer Apprentice 15 1896 Lancashire Manchester
Cyril Short Son - Male School 7 1904 Lancashire Manchester
Minnie Short Daughter - Female School 6 1905 Lancashire Manchester
John Reeves Nephew Single Male Fancy Wireworker 19 1892 Lancashire Manchester
Address 14 Ethel St Moston Manchester
Parish North Manchester
County Lancashire
Census reference RG14 PN24247 RG78 PN1391 RD467 SD4 ED15 SN326
(says Married 20yrs, 5 children born, 3 living, 2 died)


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1891

SHORT George REEVES Adeline Newton Heath, St. Anne Archives+, Manchester Central Library 102


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1903

SHORT Cyril Newton Archives+, Manchester Central Library NEW/189/18


SHORT, CYRIL REEVES
GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 346

I started getting a bit tangled and didn't know wether I was barking up the wrong tree so I've gone back to what I know is 100%certain and that is the son George Short 1868 and Adeline Reeves 1869 married 1891 Manchester.
her side of the family is rather straight forward but I'm going to try again and work up his side :-S
Any help would be much appreciated and thank you for all your help so far.

What details does 1891 Marriage Cert. give?...

Chris :)