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Susan
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25 Jan 2017 13:57 |
Hi Sorry I been away with work just back . Thank you all very much indeed for all your help on solving my Summerbell puzzle. :-)
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+++DetEcTive+++
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21 Jan 2017 17:35 |
Has the 1939 Register been posted elsewhere? Is this your Alexander Summerbell?
Household (5 People) 2 Budle Street , Newcastle-upon-Tyne C.B., Northumberland, England
First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number Alexander Summerbell 07 Aug 1876 Male Builders Labourer Married 115 Catherine Talbot (Summerbell) 03 Sep 1918 Female Green Grocers Asst Single 115 2 Henry Wallace 31 Aug 1874 Male Builders Labourer Widowed 115 3 George Anderson 01 Jul ? Male ??? Single 115 4 Ann Anderson 08 Apr 1909 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 115 5
Note - on the image it looks as if George Anderson was married with a dob of 1 Jul either 1894 or 1904. There's a bit of sticky tape on the page which has made it hard to read. Catherine Summerbell married a Talbot which is the name she was using when she died.
Assuming it is the correct family, the baptism posted earlier by Chris for Alexander is a possible.
First name(s) Alexander Tate Last name Summerbell Gender Male Baptism year 1876 Baptism date 27 Aug 1876 Residence Gateshead, Durham, England Place Gateshead County Durham Father's first name(s) Father's last name Mother's first name(s) Minetta Mother's last name Summerbell
Its a pity that there isn't an image to check his mother's name. In any event, you should note that there is no father named. Unless there is a Tate connection somewhere else, sometimes the child of an unmarried mother will be given their biological father's surname as a second forename
With the lack of other evidence, it might be worth you purchasing a copy of the only Alexander Summerbell's birth reg which 'fits'.
Alexander Summerbelle Registration Year: 1876 Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep Registration district: Gateshead Inferred County: Durham Volume: 10a Page: 887
You could contact Gateshead Local Studies and ask if they can trace a copy of the baptism for Alexander Tate Summerbell. They are likely to make a charge http://isee.gateshead.gov.uk/
[email protected] Gateshead Central Library Prince Consort Road, Gateshead, NE8 4LN Tel: 0191 433 8430
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+++DetEcTive+++
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21 Jan 2017 16:45 |
Yes -an Alexander Summerbell did marry a Mary Ann Dent. We've 'proved' it via census and other records. The 4 people with the same GRO references are a reflection of the page of marriages sendt to the Registry. At that time each page had two certificates = 4 names.
Their son born 1888 is a completely different person to the one shown as a son of Widow Elizabeth Summerbell. They are two different families. The Alexander you are tracing back from was born 1876, over 10 years earlier.
Its possible that the widow Mrs Elizabeth Summerbell never married a Summerbell but only took her partner's surname. Its also possible that Summerbell was her maiden name. If she moved away from her home area, it would be easy enough to pretend to be a widow.
Illegitimate children would often make up a fictitious father's name. Although it may not be the case in this instance, its worth considering. Perhaps his father was Alexander, but had a different surname.
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Susan
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21 Jan 2017 15:58 |
Hi My grandfather ( Alexander Summerbell) x2 marriage cert shows his fathers name also Alexander, deceased at time of marriage . My research shows he had two sisters Emma Jane and Nelly whos mothers name was Elizabeth in the 1901 census. I have followed the census with Mary Dent but nothing matches up. I requested Alexanders marriage cert it also shows him married to M Dent even though showing a Elizabeth Allison marrying him in Auckland which is now Bishop Auckland in 1866 Most confusing
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maggiewinchester
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20 Jan 2017 07:04 |
Just like to point out, marriages didn't necessarily take place around a birth!
My g grandparents had their first child in 1901. G grandmother was always known as 'Mrs P', on birth certificates, 1901 and 1911 censuses, but didn't marry Mr P until 1924, after 10 children, as Mr P had ben married before, divorces were expensive, and they waited until the first Mrs P had died before marrying. I also believe, if a spouse was in an asylum, they couldn't be divorced.
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safc
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20 Jan 2017 00:10 |
Durham County Council Marriage certificate for: Name: DENT, Mary A Year: 1866
Other index entries for this marriage: SUMMERBELL, Alexander
The following options are available: Request certificate (DENT, Mary A 1866)
https://gro.durham.gov.uk/
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+++DetEcTive+++
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19 Jan 2017 19:13 |
It all comes down to team-work and applying the basic principle - start with what you 'know' with documented evidence and work back from there :-D
If it's a direct line, as it seems to be in this case, save your pennies until you can afford the relevant certificates. Although we can frequently work things out from available records, we've all made mistakes and taken the wrong turn.
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Chris Ho :)
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19 Jan 2017 19:04 |
lol, well going 'round the houses' (or should I say 'Threads') usually gets us there!, well done Det.
Hope Susan can digest things...
Chris :)
Edits (after having another look round at things, saw below, how many Alexanders are there, lol, those Certs. definitely needed)
England, Births & Baptisms 1538-1975 Transcription (Find My Past)
First name(s) Alexander Tate Last name Summerbell Gender Male Baptism year 1876 Baptism date 27 Aug 1876 Residence Gateshead, Durham, England Place Gateshead County Durham Father's first name(s) Father's last name Mother's first name(s) Minetta Mother's last name Summerbell
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+++DetEcTive+++
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19 Jan 2017 19:02 |
Probably all we've achieved with certainty is
a) the 1866 marriage for an Alexander Summerbell (c1826) was to Mary A Dent. b) Mrs Harriet Francis Summerbell's (1882) maiden name was Williams or Wynn Williams.
Time for the 1899 marriage certificate???
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+++DetEcTive+++
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19 Jan 2017 18:45 |
Now that makes sense.
McCann wasn't (Harriet) Francis mmn, it was Williams/Wynn-Williams :-D ...... [From earlier thread] !sabella's second marriage
Marriages Jun 1893 (>99%) Abbott Bridget Newcastle T. 10b 252 xxxx McCan James Newcastle T. 10b 252 Monaghan William Newcastle T. 10b 252 xxxx Williams Isabella Wynn Newcastle T. 10b 252 ................... So although Isabella is shown as mother-in-law on the 1901 cenus, she was a Williams when (Harriet) Francis was born in c1883. McCan was her step-father's surname. ............. [From earlier thread] 1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription 13, Hanover Street, St Nicholas, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northumberland, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place Alexander Summerbell Head Married Male 24 1877 Labourer In Factory - Francis Summerbell Wife Married Female 19 1882 - - Isabella McCann Mother-In-Law Widow Female 63 1838 General Dealer Penrith, Cumberland, England
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Chris Ho :)
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19 Jan 2017 17:56 |
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1353733?d=asc
(James Winn Williams (b) 1839)
(and then there is above relating, so confusion reigns!, not sure which actual Certs. have been bought, for facts)
Chris :)
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+++DetEcTive+++
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19 Jan 2017 17:46 |
The 1899 marriage does seem to tie in with other research on the previous threads. Would Alexander have declared a true father or just made one up?
Unfortunately Susan believes that Alexander's wife is "FRANCES SUMMERBELL(NEE McCANN)" not a Williams.
You'd have thought that "Alexander" and "Summerbell" would be a relatively easy combination of names to research, wouldn't you? :-S
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Chris Ho :)
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19 Jan 2017 17:32 |
(looking at that Navy Record posted above, below looks to relate?)
Chris :)
SUMMERBELL, ALEXANDER (WILLIAMS) GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 86
Marriages Mar 1899 (>99%) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Allen Esther Newcastle T. 10b 231 Miles Edward Newcastle T. 10b 231 Summerbell Alexander Newcastle T. 10b 231 Williams Harriet Frances W Newcastle T. 10b 231 Winn-Williams Harriet F Newcastle T. 10b 231
SUMMERBELL, ISABELLA (WILLIAMS) GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 111
SUMMERBELL, MARY ELIZABETH (WILLIAMS) GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 108
SUMMERBELL, ANNIE (WILLIAMS) GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 99
SUMMERBELL, ELLEN (WILLIAMS) GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE Volume 10B Page 171
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+++DetEcTive+++
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19 Jan 2017 17:11 |
Unless someone can find an earlier record for Mrs Elizabeth Summerbell(e) eg marriage or census, then may be Susan should consider buying a copy of Alexander Summerbelle's BC. If a father's name is shown, then we have a better chance of finding an appropriate earlier record, either a census or a marriage
Brought forward to avoid confusion
Alexander Summerbelle Registration Year: 1876 Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep Registration district: Gateshead Inferred County: Durham Volume: 10a Page: 887
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19 Jan 2017 16:58 |
Taking the 1911 posted on the other thread
1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription 69 George St Newcastle, Westgate, Northumberland, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation Alexander Summerbell Head Married Male 35 1876 Newcastle General Labourer Franciss Summerbell Wife Married Female 29 1882 Newcastle Alish Mon Summerbell Daughter - Female 4 1907 Newcastle Mary Lizzie Summerbell Daughter - Female 8 1903 Newcastle Alexandrew Summerbell Son Single Male 4 1907 Newcastle Annie Summerbell Daughter Single Female 2 1909 Newcastle ..................... Back-tracking Alexander Summerbell c1876 Newcastle 1881 census
Alexander Summerbell Age: 5 Estimated birth year: abt 1876 Relationship to Head: Son Mother: Elizabeth Summerbell Gender: Male Where born: Gateshead, Durham, England Civil Parish: Heworth County/Island: Durham Country: England Street address: Quarry Row
Occupation: Scholar Registration district: Gateshead ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Piece: 5031 Folio: 7 Page Number: 12
Elizabeth Summerbell 40 <<<<b Pittingham, Durham c1841. Widow Emma Jane Summerbell 7 Alexander Summerbell 5 Nelley Summerbell 2 Jessey Millet 21 Jennet Brown Sykes 20 ......................... Birth reg from freebmd
Alexander Summerbelle Registration Year: 1876 Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep Registration district: Gateshead Inferred County: Durham Volume: 10a Page: 887
Matching entry from the free search on GRO
SUMMERBELLE, ALEXANDER no mmn shown. GRO Reference: 1876 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 887 ............. As no mother's maiden name is shown, one of two assumptions can be made 1 - she wasn't married 2 - the data wasn't captured when it was digitally scanned
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19 Jan 2017 16:44 |
It looks possible Chris. In which case Susan may have traced back from a different Summerbell family.
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Chris Ho :)
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19 Jan 2017 16:40 |
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/genealogy_chat/thread/1349432
(could above relate perhaps?)
http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/
(if anything on above)
Chris :)
23 July 1943 - Newcastle Evening Chronicle - Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Roll Of Honour. SUMMERBELL - Lost at sea, as a result of enemy action, on H.M.S Hecla, November 12, 1942, Alexander Summerbell, son ot Mr. and Mrs. Summerbell. Newcastle. Service on Wednesday, July 28, at 8 a m.. St. Mary’s Cathedral. Deeply mourned. R.I.P.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14828753
(Name: Alexander Summerbell. Official Number: SSX. 12361. Date of Birth: 21 November 1906. Place of Birth: St Nicholas, Newcastle, Northumberland.)
Edits (another below)
http://www.genesreunited.com.au/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1255920?d=asc
Susan Report 21 Jan 2011 09:57
TRYING TO FIND ANY INFORMATION ON GREAT GRANDMOTHER FRANCES SUMMERBELL(NEE McCANN) BORN 1882 IN CUMBRIA.MARRIED ALEXANDER HAD SEVERAL CHILDREN ANNIE b1909 MARY b1903ALEXANDERb1907 HELENA b1912 KITTY b?. KITTY
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+++DetEcTive+++
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19 Jan 2017 16:40 |
I'm assuming Susan used the incorrect term.
Assuming this is the Robert Baxter also shown on the same page of the marriage reference
1891 Robert Baxter Age: 52 Estimated birth year: abt 1839 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Baxter Gender: Male Where born: Shelfanger, Norfolk, England Civil Parish: Whitworth Ecclesiastical parish: Spennymoor St Pauls Town: Spennymoor County/Island: Durham Country: England
Registration district: Auckland ED, institution, or vessel: 36 Neighbors: View others on page Piece: 4073 Folio: 22 Page Number: 38 Household Members: Name Age Robert Baxter 52 Elizabeth Baxter 48 Hannah J Baxter 21 Ethel Baxter 1 Isabella Whittington 7 ............... Daughter Hannah J Baxter's birth from freebmd
Births Sep 1869 (>99%) Baxter Hannah Jane Auckland 10a 178
The same from the free search on GRO showing mmn BAXTER, HANNAH JANE mmn ALLISON GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in AUCKLAND Volume 10A Page 178 ............ Unless Susan can provide evidence to the contrary, Elizabeth Allison m Robert Baxter Alexander Summerbell m Mary A Dent
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PatinCyprus
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19 Jan 2017 16:34 |
OK so the results are Britain it was just a thought re census having maiden names.
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PatinCyprus
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19 Jan 2017 16:29 |
Could this be Auckland New Zealand not Bishop Auckland. There is nothing to say what country it is.
Although with a name like that it should be easy to find.
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