Military Chat

MC kindly forwarded me a copy of the images she sent to Silwyn.

Abt 67% of way thru, there's a doc franked Shrewsbury concerning Percy's personal effects.
This says Percy was in 1/1 Mon (the 1st regiment had 3 battallions: 1/1, 1/2, 1/3 with difft WW1 histories)
The 1/1 Mon joined the 46th (North Midland) Division as Divisional Pioneer Bn September 1915.

http://www.1914-1918.net/monmouth.htm
http://www.1914-1918.net/46div.htm

If I go to
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
and do an search for monmouth or monmouthshire within dept code wo95
there are 2 relevant hits: firstly

Reference: WO 95/2277/1
Description:
1 Battalion Monmouthshire Regiment. Missing
Date: 1915 Feb - Aug
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record

but that one is missing - the regiment was badly chewed up in Spring 1915, and I'm not surprised that this record is "missing".

Secondly:
WO 95 - War Office: First World War and Army of Occupation War Diaries
PART I: FRANCE, BELGIUM AND GERMANY
46 DIVISION
WO 95/2679 - Divisional Troops (Described at item level)

Reference: WO 95/2679/1
Description:
1 Battalion Monmouthshire Regiment (Pioneers)
Date: 1915 Sept. - 1919 July
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record

Order and viewing options
£3.30
409 files totalling approximately 95.5 MB

These were unit war diaries, and say what the unit was doing day by day.
If you've never seen any of these, here's a couple of example pages:
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e044/e001087970.jpg
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e044/e001087971.jpg
[These are from Sep 1916 for 13th bn CEF. (Canadian WDs are online and free)]

--------------------

Although Percy's records mostly say he had GSW (Gun Shot Wounds), abt 55% thru MC's stuff is his transfer records to the 43rd CCS.
On 27/12/16, he's wounded in action, then taken by the 1st N Midland Field Ambulance Coy (one of the 3 divisional anbulance coy's, who admit him with GSW to the Rt Hand & Leg, and transport him to the 43rd CCS, who admit him with a diagnosis of Multiple Shell Wds. He died later that day.
[Perhaps I was mislead by the modern usage of "gun" as a handgun - possibly back then gun maybe often referred to artillery, as in the sound of the guns.]

Although I've not seen the unit WDs, I don't think there was any major action going on that day. December's really not the time for that.

I think part of that transcription from FWR is missing - Percy had the Victory & British War medals.

Having said that, Forces War Records is notoriously inaccurate on it's medal information.

This is from War Forces Records


First Name:
Percy Havelock

Initials:
P H

Surname:
Turner

DOB:
Circa 1888

Age:
28

Birth Town:
London

Resided Town:
Abertysswg, Glamorgan

Nationality:
British

Date of Death:
27/12/1916

Fate:
Died of Wounds

Information:
Husband of Rose May Turner, of 3, Hill Rd., Abertysswg, Cardiff.

Rank:
Rifleman

Service Number:
3768

Duty Location:
France And Flanders

Campaign Medals:

Victory Medal

Regards Kim

Thank you Marie,

I am looking at it but can't quite believe it, apart from census & birth & marriage certs it's the first thing I have seen that is about Percy himself. I am so grateful to you for taking the time to help me. Thanks again

Silwyn x

Silwyn, I've sent you a message (check your message inbox) with the document attached.

Thank you again everyone for all your help,

MarieCeleste that would be wonderful.

Yes Kath my Dad was just 9 when his Dad died & he always told me that Percy was a very gentle man and also religious, he also told me about the inscription. I have said for many years that I am going to see Percy's grave because my Dad would have loved to have visited it, all this info has made me more determined to go to France.

Silwyn x

Will collate the service record images (there is quite a bit more on Ancestry than on FMP) and send to Silwyn.

According to the CWGC site his headstone has the inscription "Safe in the arms of Jesus"

Kath. x

Do you have him in the 1911 census? If not here it is:-

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
3 Hill St Abertysswg Cardiff, Rhymney, Monmouthshire, Wales

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation

Percy Havelock Turner Head - Male 21 1890 Camden Town London Coal Miner Hewer
Rose May Turner Wife - Female 18 1893 Troedrhingwair Mon
John Christopher Addis Turner Son - Male 3 1908 Merthyr Tydsil Glam
Florrie Evelyn Turner Daughter - Female 2 1909 Abertysswg Mon

Married 3 years. 3 children born alive. 2 living and one has died.

Kath. x

Thank you so much Kath, I'm feeling really emotional, I know that sounds silly to someone else but this is information I have been trying to find for so long.

Thanks again
Silwyn ( Wonky Woman )

His service records are on Findmypast. He enlisted on 12th April 1915 at Newport Monmouthshire.

He went to France on 9th June 1916.

He died of multiple shot wounds.

There isn't much left of his records (looks like they were burned) but you can see his signature and it gives a description of him.

Sorry, I'm no good at copying these records but someone else may be able to do it for you.

Kath. x

Thank you everyone,
I am going to use all the info you've given me and get back to you when I've found something, My Grandfather was Percy Havelock Turner army no 3768 in 1st Monmouthshire Regiment, died 27th December 1916, he was 28 ( died of his wounds ), Duty location :- France & Flanders. I would like to find out if it's possible to see his army record or at least know when he actually enlisted .

The cemetery where he is buried will be on the CWGC site. The cemetery details often give info on what battles the soldiers buried there were killed in.

His d.cert will be a certified copy of an entry in the War Returns register for WW1.
You can see an image of such a page via a link at foot of:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&404
(Naturally, given the site, this is a Scotish regiment, but the register's pretty identical.
Although you don't say, I'm assuming he was in the British army, rather than some other nation's army, and he was in the army, not the land forces of the RN, say).

I presume you've either seen his service record, or know he died of wounds from family stories.
If all you knew was he died in a military hospital or a casualty clearing station, it's usually difficult to know he wasn't killed in a bombing raid, and nearly impossible to say he didn't die of sickness.

War medals, and also war diaries are great too. But I got more info on my certificate, as it told me he was a prisoner of war. :-D

Hello "Wonky" - the UK Army Register of Soldiers Effects occasionally gives a more specific location of death than that given on CWGC (it sometimes gives the Casualty Clearing Station etc)

If you care to give the who when and where details we could check it out for you.

What was his name, age and where did he come from? Do you know what regiment he served in?

You could perhaps contact the regimental museum for whichever regiment he was with. They might be able to give you more information.

Kath. x

Thanks Kath, I was hoping to have more info, I already know that he ' died of his wounds '. I am also trying to find out exactly where in France he was fighting and where he died, would anyone know where I could get this information. Thanks again.

Silwyn ( Wonky Woman)

Welcome to the Community boards Wonky Woman.




(I'll let Wonky Woman know how to find her replies) :-)