Find Ancestors

Can anyone help with this mystery!

My great great grandmother Catherine Bingham b 1848 in Ireland, married David Marshall 1868 from whom she was divorced in 1894. (Register of Corrected Entries confirms this). In 1881 Catherine gave birth to a Martha Smith Marshall but states quite clearly that David Marshall is not the father and she has not had any contact from him in two years. No father is listed. The Scottish Census for Montrose places Catherine as a Boarder in the household of a Robert Smith who is noted as married but no wife is listed. Her daughter is shown on the census as Martha Smith Knight aged one month. (note change of surname!)

Catherine's death certificate states that at the time of her death (5.11.1913), she was the widow of David Marshall and Robert Smith. Catherine died in an asylum and the informant on the certificate is an assistant not a relative.

I can find no record at all in Scotlands People for a marriage between 1894 and 1913 for a Robert Smith and Catherine. I have used all of her names, Bingham, Marshall but nothing comes up.

Does anyone have any ideas where I could search next? I cannot locate Catherine on the 1891 or 1901 census records and I can't think of where to go next. If they were not married and were a defacto couple instead, would whoever was registering the death have cross checked to etablish if Catherine was really married?

Any ideas or help greatly appreciated!

What of Martha?wha happened to her - can you find her on census?

On the name Q, you can call yourself whatever you like. As lomg as it isn't for illegal gain, you can change your name tommorow.

what is your 1881 ref - I cant see the entry you describe

In cases just like these, a couple often moved, assumed Mr &Mrs and no one was ever the wiser

Phew. Just to spare anyone else the Ancestry misery:

Robert Smith 50 - railway labourer
James Smith 10
Frank Smith 4
Cathrine Marshall 34
Martha S Kinght 1 Mo


Silly me, I was searching for Martha Knight (and Catherine Marshall).


Is there any chance that Catherine had been in the asylum before that time?


Name: John B Knight
Age: 63
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1818
Where born: Edinburgh, Edinburghshire
Registration district: Montrose
> Civil Parish: Montrose
County: Angus
Address: Sunnyside
Occupation: Doctor Of Medicine
> ED: Royal Lunatic Asylum Of Montrose


Also keep in mind that if she were in the asylum in 1891 and 1901, she might appear in the census only by initials.

Thank Evie - I wa getting cranky cos I couldnt find her

1891

Name: Catherine Smith
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relationship: Boarder
Where born: Ireland, Dublin
Registration Number: 312
Registration district: Montrose
Civil Parish: Montrose
County: Angus
Address: Rosebank House

Elizabeth Gardyne 20
Mary A S Gardyne 26
Jane Alexander 65
Catherine Smith 48

?

edit - Scratch! - see below

Here I'd thought it would be easier to find Catherine Marshall or Martha Knight in 1881 than Robert Smith!

Ancestry can probably mistranscribe "Robert Smith", but this time they managed not to. ;)

Where you bin looking, Rachelle??

1891

Name: Martha Smith
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Father's Name: Robert
Gender: Female
Where born: Montrose, Forfarshire

Name: Catherine Bingham
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relationship: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Registration Number: 432
Registration district: Inverkeithing
Civil Parish: Inverkeithing
Town: Inverkeithing
County: Fife
Address: Alma St

Robert Smith 60 - born England, plate layer (i.e. railway)
Catherine Bingham 39
Martha Smith 10
Robina Smith 6

1891

Source Citation: Parish: Inverkeithing; ED: 3; Page: 5; Line: 20; Roll: CSSCT1891_132; Year: 1891.


snap

hold on, got the wrong one.

I never bother with those source citation thingies. ;)


1901

Name: Catharine Smith
Age: 53
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 282/3
Registration district: St Clement
Civil Parish: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: No 18 Hospital Wynd - ?
Occupation: Jute Spinner

Catharine Smith 53
Martha Smith 20
Robina Smith 16

can we ask which assylum she died in?

I've seen Scottish censuses where "wife" is listed with a different surname from husband. Don't know whether it means they weren't married in every case or not.

R - have a look at this coincidental thread which was just below yours:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1147889

1871?

Name: Catherine Marshall
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : David
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland

Name: David Marshall
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Logieheart, Forfarshire
Occupation: Ship Carpenter

Registration Number: 644/8
Registration district: Anderston
Civil Parish: Glasgow Barony
County: Lanarkshire
Address: 3 Dock Street

David Marshall 25
Catherine Marshall 23
Elizabeth S Marshall 1 - born Glasgow
David Watson 25 - lodger
William Marshall 22 - lodger - same birthplace as David


Does the image at SP show what the middle initial for Elizabeth stands for?

(You know that Martha's middle name was Smith and Ancestry just says S.)

Thank you for your replies...

I have the image of the 1881 census and the surname could be Knight or Kinght. The handrwiting is unclear. Although why the difefring surname than that shown on her birth certificate? Apologies I had said that I had this census in my opening message, but had not been able to locate her after this date.

I have Catherine on the 1871 census, and then on the 1881 census. All I can see is that she had a number of children with her husband David, but the majority of them seemed to always have lived with the paternal grandparents in Mount Street, Montrose until they married or died.

Minnie, Catherine died at the Hartwood Asylum in Shotte. Does this help?

I would not know is she had been an inmate before, I don't know how to track that kind of information down. Does anyone know this?

Evie Catherine was not divorced until 1894 so I had not realised she'd be calling herself Catherine Smith before this, but if she is with the Gardyne's that's the right person or the one you found after that could also be correct!

Yep Evie I knew that Martha's middle name was Smith as I said that in my opening message. The S in the middle of Elizabeth's name in the 1871 census is also Smith which just to complicate things is also a family name, the Smith being the maiden name of Elizabeth's paternal grandma!

Thanks Evie, the message thread about Alexander Marshall isn't one of mine I had looked at that previously but the dates and names don't fit. Funny timing coincidence though!

Thanks all, I'll go and see what I can see from the census info you kindly supplied!

Cheers

Rachelle

Shotte.is where, please?

Oops, you saw that Gardyne one before I deleted it. That was an excess of zeal; she is obviously the one I did put up, the one with Robert Smith and Martha and Robina.

When I said that about Kinght/Knight it was Ancestry I was dissing -- one of their no doubt hightly trained, well-paid transcribers typed the name wrong. Of course it's Knight, but because of Ancestry's sloppiness I hadn't been able to find her as such! You were looking at the census at SP, which didn't make that error.

I asked about the "S" because I didn't know anything about that Elizabeth and wondered whether the "S" was indeed Smith, and whether the census image would show it. It's useful to know it's a family name -- so it's equally likely that's the reason for Martha having it as that she had it through Robert.

I'm not sure whether I was too delicate. With Martha being called Knight, I wondered whether Catherine might have been in the asylum and been a victim of sexual exploitation by a doctor. It unquestionably happened. (My mum was sexually assaulted by her doctor a lot more recently than that, although not as blatantly as that would have been.)

I would doubt that if Catherine and Robert were a couple they ever married. Do you know the grounds of her divorce -- was she the one divorcing or being divorced? You did see in the 1901 that they were no longer together -- you don't doubt that's her in the 1901? Perhaps Robert died before her divorce.

Oh, and - no, I can't imagine anyone cross-checking records to verify a name at death. Her death would have been reported under whatever name she was admitted to hospital under, and that would be whatever she or whoever admitted her told the hospital at the time. One's name was whatever one called one's self!

Hi,

The two census returns 1891 & 1901 look to be correct for Catherine thank you once again.

In my own defence because I can assure you Evie I had spent quite some time looking for Ctaherine, if you perform a search for Catherine Bingham in 1891 on SP NOT Ancestry the only one that comes up is a Catherine Bingham aged 4. I assume this is obviously a problem with SP as she is clearly listed on the census. I also did search for a Martha Smith but it was a very popular name as the time as is Robert Smith!

Thanks all.

So if you combine SP and Ancestry you might get the magic formula. ;)

I had thought SP might be more accurate - it was in Martha's case, fortunately. The problem with using SP is you don't get fuzzy results as easily - and you have to pay per view - whereas with Ancestry you can muddle around to your heart's content and see what comes out without having to pay for stuff that turns out to be useless.

If SP would offer subscriptions, and Ancestry would hire (and train and pay) competent people ... life would be beautiful.

HI Evie,

Sorry to hear about your mother, what a terrible thing for her to go through!

I did think that may have happened to Catherine when you looked up that Dr Knight. I can well imagin eit happening! It struck me as unusual that Catherine was very definate on the certificate that her husband David Marshall was not the father and that she had not seen him for two years. He divorced her and then remarried at a later date. I do not know the grounds for the divorce, is there a way this can be looked up?

Minnie, Sorry the Hartwood Asylum is in or was in I should say, Schotts, Lanark.

The next mystery is SP shows no record of a Robina Smith birth in the right year!

Thanks again!